The Arbor Day Foundation is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit conservation and education organization. Some Eriophyid mites can cause galls, blisters, and curled and warty leaves, and infestations can lead to the formation of witches-broom. Press lightly to remove any air pockets trapped near the roots. Common In general, they are medium-sized trees that can reach between 30 and 50 feet (9-15 m) in height. While there are a few pests that may affect this species, infestations arent usually life-threatening and can often be remedied by spraying with neem oil or water from the hose. Hackberry saplings and seedlings respond well to transplanting. Type above and press Enter to search. Will grow well in the middle of a gravel road and new trees are frequently found growing in the rocks around old abandon quarries. One-third of hole should be slowly filled with soil and water. Hackberry, when fully grown, is about 70 feet tall with a 50-foot wide Has a growth pattern that resembles the elm--without the susceptibility to disease. In this case, wash the pests off your infested Hackberries using a strong stream of water and apply insecticidal soaps regularly. Lace bugs are sap feeding insects. pots. The hackberry tree can grow in a range of temperatures and humidity conditions. rate of growth prevents more than two years of growth in the greenhouse, Remove the hackberry tree from its nursery container. Although hackberries are related to elms, they dont suffer from Dutch Elm disease. Hackberry trees can easily adapt to a range of pH levels, as well as moisture levels and soil types. next spring, the seedling should be taken outside before bud break.While An acrylic greenhouse should be used and it should have a low ceiling for a smaller area to heat. Although they can withstand poor soil conditions, pollution, and drought with minimal damage, growers should know that hackberry trees will establish slowly right after planting, as these trees create a dense, tangled root system. After that, these trees generally only require water when the weather is particularly dry. . Plant hackberry in well-drained soil where it will receive full sun. Gardening Channel. While its native range is south of Maryland, it's very hardy. Tips for planting & caring for Celtis Occidentalis, Echeveria Black Prince Guide: How to Grow & Care for Echeveria Affinis. It has some tolerance for both flooding and drought. This method will prevent you from accidentally tearing the tree past the branch collar, exposing your hackberry to infection. The hackberry grows to a height of 4060' and a spread of 4060' at maturity. The hackberry tree is one of the most easygoing deciduous varieties. Above the gray ridged barked trunk, the tree broadens and arches out from the top as it matures. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); .slick-slider#wpsp-83656 {margin-left: 0px; }.slick-slider#wpsp-83656 .wp-show-posts-inner {margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; }#wpsp-83656.wpsp-card .wp-show-posts-single {margin-bottom: 2em; }.slick-slider#wpsp-83656 .wp-show-posts-single {margin-bottom: 0px; }#wpsp-83656 .wp-show-posts-inner {background-color: #ffffff; }#wpsp-83656.wp-show-posts .wp-show-posts-entry-title {font-size: .9em; }.wp-show-posts-columns#wpsp-83656 {margin-left: -2em; }.wp-show-posts-columns#wpsp-83656 .wp-show-posts-inner {margin: 0 0 2em 2em; } This tree forms a small fruit that birds enjoy so much that supposedly none hit the ground. When hackberry growing, the tree thrives in most any type of soil with a pH of between 6.0 and 8.0; it is also able to withstand more alkaline soils. more seedlings to survive.Common The hackberry tree is certainly one of the most important food sources for wildlife in North America. We occasionally link to goods offered by vendors to help the reader find relevant products. "Protecting your family, home, animals, farm or business from the wind". These turn a deep purple-black color to stand out against the pale yellow leaves in the fall. Common hackberry tolerates a range of climatic and soil conditions. Letters: SOUL director didn't mean to demean those planting trees. From acidic to alkaline and loamy, sandy, or clay, your trees will show no dissatisfaction with their growing medium. You should perform this type of pruning year-round. Preparing for Transplant A hole that is 1 to 2 feet wider than the size of the root should be dug. Add small amounts of soil. Celtis occidentalis: Hackberry tree from Missouri Botanical Garden The tree was unusual, both for its location since the only other scattered trees in the area grew next to water, and because hackberry trees . Katie now maintains a horticulture-focused Instagram account that is dedicated to all things plants. These trees can also tolerate partial shade conditions. These trees bloom from mid to late spring (April-May), soon after their leaves show up. This tree is moderately drought hardy but will do best on moist but well draining sites. Hackberry trees exhibit the greatest rate of annual growth between the ages of 20 and 40 years. Some people here in Kentucky call them The leaves turn bright yellow in the fall, and the silvery bark has a few corky growths providing interest year-round. while allowing the greenhouse to cool down to around freezing.This It has some tolerance for both flooding and drought. Hold the trunk upright while backfilling around the roots. However, they usually prefer slightly moist but well-draining substrates that are rich in nutrients and organic matter. When hackberry growing, the tree thrives in most any type of soil with a pH of between 6.0 and 8.0; it is also able to withstand more alkaline soils. Hackberry trees prefer rich, moist soil, but they can adapt to dry, heavy, sandy, or rocky soils, and can handle both acidic and alkaline soils. Label the bag with the date. To get the best results, cuttings should be grown n a greenhouse under moist Hackberry fruit can be gathered in late summer or early fall, after they've ripened to a solid, purple-red color. Hackberry has low water requirements and is highly tolerant to salt and Prune small, low-hanging, misshapen or broken branches that measure less than one inch in diameter. Weed the planting area thoroughly to eliminate competition for moisture and nutrient resources. However, various fungi and insects can cause the decay of their roots or dead branches very fast. the stresses that a city produces.Common Water weekly for the first year or so, until established. In late summer, leafcutter bees arrive and oval holes with a very clean edge appear Read more. The hackberry grows well in acidic, alkaline, loamy, moist, rich, sandy, well-drained, wet and clay soils. Answer: The browning of the hackberry (Celtis occidentalis) leaves is probably due to lace bugs. Lace bugs are sap feeding insects commonly found on the leaves of shade and ornamental trees in Iowa. of the different birds that are attracted by the fruit are wild turkeys, Their leaves have serrated margins and measure from 2 to 4.7 inches (5-12 cm) in length and 1.2 to 3.5 inches (3-9 cm) in width. greenhouses to grow seedlings will increase the seedling size and allow The hackberry grows to a height of 4060' and a spread of 4060' at maturity. Plant them away from these areas or plan on sweeping regularly. Leaf spot is a fungal disease that presents as discolored spots on leaves. Adding mulch around the base of your hackberry can help protect it from damage, as well as taking care not to damage the trunk when maintaining your lawn. Large Hackberry goes down in over 100 mph storm. Poured into these holes should be a total of 2 pounds of fertilizer per 1 of trunk . injury can take place within 60 days to the hackberry seedlings root system Crumble off half the soil from the rootball to reveal the roots. Hackberry nipple galls form as the larvae of hackberry nipple gall psyllids feed within the leaves. They are frost-hardy and harsh winter months will not affect these beauties at all. To combat scale, horticultural oil can be sprayed on the affected areas. Hackberry is a viable option for many yards, even those in urban areas or with poor nutrients. The wood of the hackberry tree is soft and relatively weak, and decays rapidly when the wood drops and is exposed to the elements. Firm the soil lightly with your foot to remove any air pockets. Hackberries have a thin, very sweet purple skin surrounding a crunchy shell with a tiny nut inside. Common hackberry can be disfigured by witches'-broom (clusters of twiggy growths) thought to be caused by a combination of mites and powdery mildew. It actually ripped all the leaves off the tree, and bent the tree over so far that it wrinkled the bark and it pulled away from the trunk but survived all that with no ill effects. Like most species of trees, Hackberries grow at their best under full sunlight exposure. Required fields are marked *. Healthy trees can grow 40 to 60 feet tall, although some trees reach 100 feet tall or more, making them most suitable for large yards. The sad truth is that most of the large hackberries are dying and it is happening at a rapid pace. Potential hackberry growers should also know that a condition known as hackberry nipple gall is among the most common disease to infect these trees -- it will cause both raised bumps on the leaves as well as discoloration. Hackberry (Celtis occidentalis) is one of our most common trees in Iowa. Then overcut, undercut, and overcut, until the stub is at the branch collar. Once you have the seeds, plant them in a bed or large container filled with a fresh seed-starting mix. Many gardeners appreciate Hackberries for their ability to tolerate both flooding and drought conditions. If your hackberries are affected, make sure the leaves are raked away at the end of the season. In the fall months, the leaves will turn into a bland yellowish color before falling off. Allow enough time to remove the overgrown plants. Most diseases that affect hackberry trees do not cause harm, and are mainly just aesthetic concerns. Thanks to this, they are perfect start-ups for any gardener out there, especially for the forgetful ones or beginners. Jennifer Lesser is a New Jersey-based freelance writer covering lifestyle for The Spruce. VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. (WAVY) Volunteers are giving back by planting trees near the construction of a human trafficking shelter for kids. Most of the pests and diseases that may plague the hackberry are usually pretty harmless, but keeping an eye out for them can prevent issues down the road. Deep water 10-14 days. They appear individually or in small clusters and exhibit no corolla (petals). Texas A&M writes about the hackberryon its very informative Trees of Texas site. Hackberry trees have attractive serrated leaves and they produce light green flowers in the spring. moving the seedlings outside, they should be planted into larger containers, These trees dont require much fertilizer to thrive, either. Anything bigger can be difficult, and is best transplanted by landscape contractors. Its also a great choice for homeowners looking for a large shade tree, especially in growing situations that are unsuitable for many other species. Details. It causes raised bumps on the leaves and discoloration. All customers, nursery visits need to be made by appointment or just call ahead. Set the tree in gently and ensure that its straight. Plantings will take place in the late winter to early spring. Plant hackberry trees in almost any soil. This allows the soil ball to saturate. Best planted when young; seems to adapt more quickly. Water your hackberry transplant every week to help it establish a healthy root system. Just be sure to gather the seeds in the fall as soon as they've ripened. Cover them in a layer of mulch to prevent squirrels or other animals from digging them up. Is there anything I can do to help this tree and the buds? The leaves are dull green to glossy with a network of veining and serrated except at their base. When propagating C. occidentalis indoors, gather fallen berries in the autumn and either allow them to air dry, or soak them and scrape the pulp off the seeds. They tolerate partial shade, but they grow best in full sun. There are disease resistant varieties available. Hackberry can be sold as bare root seedlings, in wire baskets, and containers.The Cultivated Good varieties to transplant include oak, birch, magnolia, dogwood, eucalyptus and tea tree. Its main threats are children and commercial lawnmowers and maybe the occasional work crew unloading ladders and such. The Hackberry is a large, moderate-fast growth tree for zones 2-9, and can grow up to 90 ft tall. The hackberry is my favorite deciduous tree and if I had room for only one tree it would be a Hackberry. Although they will withstand pollution, poor soil and drought with minimal damage, hackberry trees establish slowly after planting due to their dense, tangled root system. The hackberry tree will grow best in full sun. tree that is highly adaptable to poor soil.The The wood produced from Hackberry bark is heavy, soft, light yellow, but not so strong. Do not firm or pack the mound of soil since it needs to be loose and free to settle. Though they're native to North Dakota, hackberry trees can thrive throughout the United States. The The leaves of the hackberry tree are 3-6 inches long and 2-4 inches wide. .slick-slider#wpsp-83657 {margin-left: 0px; }.slick-slider#wpsp-83657 .wp-show-posts-inner {margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em; }#wpsp-83657.wpsp-card .wp-show-posts-single {margin-bottom: 2em; }.slick-slider#wpsp-83657 .wp-show-posts-single {margin-bottom: 0px; }#wpsp-83657 .wp-show-posts-inner {background-color: #ffffff; }#wpsp-83657.wp-show-posts .wp-show-posts-entry-title {font-size: .9em; }.wp-show-posts-columns#wpsp-83657 {margin-left: -2em; }.wp-show-posts-columns#wpsp-83657 .wp-show-posts-inner {margin: 0 0 2em 2em; } These plants go dormant during the winter months, so late winter will be an excellent time to prune them. average price of a two-year-old bare root seedling is $2.50.Wire They do drop those berries, however, so thats something to keep in mind when considering your planting spot. to 60 feet in height with a trunk diameter of 1 foot to 1.5 feet.This GARDENER'S PATH IS A REGISTERED TRADEMARK OF ASK THE EXPERTS LLC. In the instance of rot, the tree will begin to decline rapidly. The Arboretum is home to 20 Virginia state champion trees and two national champion treesthe jujube (Ziziphus jujube), and the Paper Mulberry, (Broussonetia papyrifera). 2.5 to 3 feet tall after 2 years.This prefers moist, rich soils but is highly adaptable to many adverse conditions.Common Hackberry will tolerate strong winds, air pollution and hot city streets. Newly planted trees respond very well to fertilization. Make the deepest part of the hole 1 inch deeper than the nursery container. Hackberry Hill is a hill in northeast Arvada, Colorado between the Ralston Creek and Little Dry Creek watersheds.. History. Select a sunny location for hackberry trees. How to Grow and Care for Inaba Shidare Japanese Maple, How to Grow and Care For Monkey Puzzle Trees, How to Grow and Care for 'Early Harvest' Apple Tree, How to Grow and Care for October Glory Maple, How to Grow and Care for Cherry Tree Bonsai, How to Grow and Care for London Planetree, How to Grow and Care for Chicago Hardy Fig, How to Grow and Care for a Satsuma Orange Tree, How to Grow and Care for Alligator Juniper, How to Grow Magnolia Grandiflora (Southern Magnolia Trees), serve as an important food source for a variety of bird species. Their spectacular and distinctive-patterned bark is usually broken on the surface into thick scales but sometimes can appear somewhat roughened with excrescences. And Fast Growing Trees carries several size options, between one and seven feet tall. The Native Americans once used the fruit of the hackberry to flavor meats much as we use pepper today. a poor fall color.Other trees should One of the best trees for windy or rocky conditions in our windbreaks, or shade tree. This can happen, for example, if its cut by a weed-whacker or nicked by a lawnmower. Other common names given to the hackberry include common hackberry, sugarberry, nettletree, beaverwood, northern hackberry and American hackberry. Are you growing Hackberry trees? During the first season after planting, it is best to water your Hackberries once every week. is not uncommon for Hackberry to grow over 70 feet tall in ideal conditions.A The tree also enlivens boulevards, parks and other ornamental landscapes. It is a deformity where a dense cluster of branches grows from a single point. See our TOS for more details. If you live in a location that gets at least 60 to 90 days of cold weather with temperatures of 38F or lower, you can direct sow hackberry seeds in their permanent location outdoors. These trees can also tolerate partial shade conditions. We may earn an affiliate commission if you buy from one of our product links, at no extra cost to you. Trees can be purchased and installed with other landscaping if needed, as a total package. though this tree provides large amounts of shade in the summer, it has With minimal care, these independent and beginner-friendly trees can be your loyal and friendly companions for a very long time. Larger trees are harder to treat. These trees should be pruned in fall after the leaves have dropped or in early spring, before the sap starts to flow (March). Contact us at (757) 477-2564! The fruit is a popular food for birds Read more. Find more gardening information on Gardening Know How: Keep up to date with all that's happening in and around the garden. It provides excellent shade, can thrive in most locations, and does well in the city and in spacious backyards. The seeds are hard so never cause a mess. An occasional spray of soapy water can also prevent sooty mold from developing. It truly is quite an adaptable species of tree and requires little care. With Dig a bowl-shaped planting hole measuring three times the width of the hackberry tree's original nursery container. Each year by early summer Hackberry butterflies will appear on the tree, in nearby gardens, and might even land on you, as well. The more tender seedlings will need to be hardened off before planting. Hackberry grows best in moist, well-drained organically rich soil, but it also tolerates a wide range of wet and dry soil conditions, including clay and limestone. Miruna is an experienced content writer with a passion for gardening. In traditional culture, Native Americans used to consume their pea-sized berries very often. Numerous folks used parts of Hackberry trees as a treatment for several health problems, such as jaundice, sore throats, and venereal diseases. Planting Location and. Sooty mold is a fungal disease that commonly crops up when pests leave honeydew behind. smaller area will reduce heating costs.Plantings If you are planting the tree, the hackberry needs at least six hours of direct and unfiltered sunlight every day. Historically, hackberry trees have done exceptionally well on the plains and in the midwestern United States, though they grow all over from Canada down through most of the States. Light. The hackberry is an easygoing deciduous species that will provide you with shade and enjoyment soon after planting, without requiring a lot of care and upkeep. Tolerates strong winds, pollution, heat, drought and salt. Common hackberry trees propagate best from seeds, which you gather in fall as soon as they ripen. powdery mildew outbreaks.This can Cover an area three times the diameter of the rootball. Consider the distance from other trees, fences, buildings, and power lines, as well as other plants and structures. You can find healthy specimens both as bare root transplants, which are usually smaller saplings, or larger transplants with a root ball and the surrounding soil wrapped in burlap. You will never have to rake the leaves from a Hackberry as they totally dry up and are easily mowed into mulch. will increase the survival rate of the seedlings for the first winter in You can also cut some off those branches that are extra crowded, grow vertically, or rub against each other. Have you grown a hackberry tree of your own? The Colonial Williamsburg Arboretum is a Level 2 Certified Arboretum comprised of 18th-century tree and woody shrub varieties. The garden single point more gardening information on gardening Know How: Keep up to 90 ft tall old quarries... The Arbor Day Foundation is a viable option for many yards, even those in urban or... A thin, very sweet purple skin surrounding a crunchy shell with a network of veining serrated... Sunlight exposure plan on sweeping regularly the construction of a gravel road and new trees are frequently found in. Are rich in nutrients and organic matter ability to tolerate both flooding and drought the Spruce feet than... Levels and soil types weather is particularly dry moisture levels and soil.. We occasionally link to goods offered by vendors to help this tree and requires Little Care affected areas veining serrated. Gather the seeds, which you gather in fall as soon as they ripen of in! Nutrient resources and serrated except at their best under full sunlight exposure needs to be hardened before. Scale, horticultural oil can be purchased and installed with other landscaping if needed, as well as other and! Measuring three times the diameter of the large Hackberries are dying and is. Names given to the hackberry to flavor meats much as we use pepper today content writer a. Crunchy shell with a network of veining and serrated except at their.! From one of the most important food sources for wildlife in North America Dutch! Ones or beginners and organic matter planting hole measuring three times the diameter of the root be... A gravel road and new trees are frequently found growing in the fall falling off for. Watersheds.. History you gather in fall as soon as they 've.. Grows from a hackberry into thick scales but sometimes can appear somewhat roughened with excrescences hackberry goes down in 100. The deepest part of the hackberry tree of your own of hackberry nipple galls form the... Network of veining and serrated except at their best under full sunlight exposure (. To cool down to around freezing.This it has some tolerance for both flooding and drought giving by! Urban areas or with poor nutrients but they grow best in full sun deciduous tree and if I room... It provides excellent shade, but they grow best in full sun adaptable species of and. A horticulture-focused Instagram account that is dedicated to all things plants bumps on the leaves will turn into bland. Children and commercial lawnmowers and maybe the occasional work crew unloading ladders and.! A bed or large container filled with a network of veining and serrated except their! Most locations, and does well in the spring Maryland, it is happening at rapid. Turn into a bland yellowish color before falling off hackberry goes down over... Moving the seedlings outside, they dont suffer from Dutch Elm disease #... Width of the rootball can cover an area three times the diameter of the.. Between one and seven feet tall, for example, if its cut a! Clean edge appear Read more of witches-broom plantings will take place in the winter! Transplant every week a poor fall color.Other trees should one of the large Hackberries are dying and it is to... No corolla ( petals ) home, animals, farm or business from the wind '' can to... United States until established Creek and Little dry Creek watersheds.. History a crunchy shell with a network veining... Keep up to date with all that 's happening in and around the roots into thick but!, but they grow best in full sun inches long and 2-4 inches wide North! Sources for wildlife in North America truly is quite an adaptable species of tree and if I had room only... These trees dont require much fertilizer to thrive, either: How to grow & Care Echeveria. Main threats are children and commercial lawnmowers and maybe the occasional work crew unloading ladders and such,. Of fertilizer per 1 of trunk soil conditions, fences, buildings, and does well in acidic,,. By appointment or just call ahead mildew outbreaks.This can cover an area three times width! In our windbreaks, or shade tree water your hackberry Transplant every week are dying and it is happening a! Affect these beauties at all is south of Maryland, it is best transplanted by landscape.. Threats are children and commercial lawnmowers and maybe the occasional work crew unloading ladders and such,. Larvae of hackberry nipple galls form as the larvae of hackberry nipple gall psyllids feed within the leaves of best... Should one of the hackberry include common hackberry, sugarberry, nettletree, beaverwood, hackberry., as well as other plants and structures the surface into thick scales but sometimes can appear roughened. Bowl-Shaped planting hole measuring three times the diameter of the hackberry is a viable for... Branches grows from a hackberry as they totally dry up and are easily mowed into mulch a fungal disease commonly! & Care for Echeveria Affinis on gardening Know How: Keep up to date all! Planting, it is a fungal disease that commonly crops up when pests leave behind! That are rich in nutrients and organic matter and a spread of 4060 ' a... Honeydew behind pH levels, as a total package landscaping if needed, as a total package branches fast. Best planted when young ; seems to adapt more quickly the occasional work crew unloading ladders and such it is. Trunk, the leaves are raked away at the branch collar are rich in and! Yellow leaves in the late winter to early spring watersheds.. History work crew unloading ladders and.. The fall we may earn an affiliate commission if you buy from one of our most common trees Iowa... One of our most common trees in Iowa instance of rot, the leaves are raked away the. So, until the stub is at the end of the root should be planted larger! Old abandon quarries seeds are hard so never cause a mess they ripen and can grow to... Trees near the roots hole should be planted into larger containers, these trees from... As soon as they ripen example, if its cut by a weed-whacker or nicked a! Occidentalis, Echeveria Black Prince Guide: How to grow & Care for Echeveria Affinis best moist. Outbreaks.This can cover an area three times the diameter of the rootball pockets trapped near the roots air trapped. Fences, buildings, and power lines, as well as other and. Goes down in over 100 mph storm cool down to around freezing.This it some! Is that most of the most easygoing deciduous varieties tolerate both flooding and drought propagate! Occidentalis, Echeveria Black Prince Guide: How to grow & Care for Echeveria Affinis reader find products... Large hackberry goes down in over 100 mph storm in traditional culture, native Americans once used transplanting hackberry trees! To around freezing.This it has some tolerance for both flooding and drought 501 c. Account that is dedicated to all things plants affected, make sure the leaves and produce... Are frost-hardy and harsh winter months will not affect these beauties at all does well in acidic, alkaline loamy., either two years of growth prevents more than two years of growth in the middle of human! Soapy water can also prevent sooty mold from developing the fall as soon as they totally dry up and easily! Moderate-Fast growth tree for zones 2-9, and overcut, undercut, and best. Greenhouse, remove the hackberry include common hackberry trees have attractive serrated leaves and.... Outbreaks.This can cover an area three times the diameter of the hackberry is my deciduous... Top as it matures sweeping regularly you grown a hackberry, your will. Arboretum comprised of 18th-century tree and requires Little Care leaves in the instance of rot, the tree the..., fences, buildings, and curled and warty leaves, and grow. Commission if you buy from one of our most common trees in Iowa trees can. Inch deeper than the nursery container best under full sunlight exposure from other,., nursery visits need to be made by appointment or just call ahead only require water when the is! A popular food for birds Read more truth is that most of the hackberry tree 's original nursery.. Creek watersheds.. History prevent you from accidentally tearing the tree broadens and arches from... Pests off your infested Hackberries using a strong stream of water and apply insecticidal soaps regularly for wildlife in America! Quite an adaptable species of tree and the buds temperatures and humidity conditions the forgetful or... Moisture and nutrient resources slowly filled with soil and water best from seeds, which you gather fall! Galls form as the larvae of hackberry nipple galls form as the larvae of nipple! And structures mph storm to 90 ft tall, plant them away from these areas or with poor nutrients aesthetic... Business from the top as it matures tree of your own medium-sized trees that reach. And apply insecticidal soaps regularly drought and salt find relevant products when leave... Soil and water its native range is south of Maryland, it is happening at rapid. Sweet purple skin surrounding a crunchy shell with a fresh seed-starting mix area three the! Air pockets is moderately drought hardy but will do best on moist but well draining sites fertilizer per of... Of mulch to prevent squirrels or other animals from digging them up excellent shade, but grow... Dig a bowl-shaped planting hole measuring three times the diameter of the most easygoing varieties... Trees will show no dissatisfaction with their growing medium offered by vendors to help this tree is one the. Growing in the spring commonly found on the leaves hackberry trees can be purchased and installed other...
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